Ratas over Eastern part of Poland IX -X 1939

HI

In October 2005 had been edited in Polans material about "Ratas over Eastern Part of Poland. I-16 During Soviet Agression on Poland in IX-X 1939. Polish title is „Szczury” nad Kresami. Myśliwce I-16 podczas sowieckiej agresji na Polskę IX-X 1939 r.
Whole story contains 7 pages od A_4, 18 b&w photos, it was printed in: Militaria XX wieku no 5(8)/2005. Price for the whole magazine is 12 PLZ (about 3,5-3,8 USD) in Poland foreign prices are unknow for this magazine?
This material presents the using by VVS RKKA I-16 over Poland in this short war.

Regards,
Mirek W an author of this whole story.

PS
This is the first time where readers can find many data about air operation of I-16 over Soviet agression on Poland.

Уважаемый, приведите подробности - а по возможности выложите статью. Я думаю, все с интересом прочтут.

Спасибо.

Hi

Sorry byt the editors copyrights bannet such move and editing this text on net.

Only by buying the magazine.

Reagrds
Mirek W

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Сообщение от mirekw

Sorry byt the editors copyrights bannet such move and editing this text on net.

Only by buying the magazine.

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Уважаемый Мирек. Но Вы можете привести здесь не всю статью, а краткое ее изложение, или кусочек. Я не думаю, что кто-то будет возражать.

Мне очень интересна тема использования ВВС во время Освободительного похода, кроме того я немного смотрел архивные документы на эту тему, было бы очень интересно сравнить. Сравним список потерь, например.
Уверен, что Ваши материалы обретут дополнительную ценность, если их дополнить.

Давайте разберем здесь эти события - я думаю это будет интересно и другим читателям.

Предлагаю Вам выложить кусок например про 17.09.39, я дополню своими..


Я бы, кстати, и журнал купил, возможности такой нет - плоховато у нас с польскими журналами. Может Вы знаете способ гарантированного приобретения?

Dear Deruluft

Yes, the subject is interesting and this is my 2-ed text about Soviet Air Forces during Russian Agression on Poland in IX 1939. According your opinion -"which is wrong and this is flase name. It was a simple very small war, when about 1.500 Russian was killed and next 2.000 injured. Russian had killed/ also mordered many times about 6.500-7.500 Polish soldiers in IX-X 1939" it was "Oswobotitelnyj pochod".

Ad rem:

The first text was edited spilted into two parts:

1. Soviet Aviation in War over Poland, September 1939. Lotnictwo sowieckie w wojnie nad Polską wrzesień 1939 roku, cz. 2; p. 6, 7 b&w photos, both parts 65.000 signes, [in:] Militaria i Fakty 5-6/2003.

2. Soviet Aviation in War over Poland, September 1939 vol. I. Lotnictwo sowieckie w wojnie nad Polską wrzesień 1939 r. cz. 1; p. 5, 7 b&w photos, [in:] Militaria i Fakty 4/2003.

This next one is a development and upgarded version of this 1-st. Text was done according Soviet document and Polish materials (cross-checking like memories, decuments).

Knowing very well your both materials printed in Russia (1999-2001 -Kotielnikov+Stiepanov) I think both mine are simple better ones.

There are for example the OdB for Rusian invasion air forces (according your documents, reports, ect.). Which Russian materials do not have at all. Also such a thing like commanders of Bialorussiand and Ukrainin Fronts VVS are not given too.

As you know many Soviet documents (not all becasue Russian archivist deliberatly had hidden some parts of records in about 1992-94 from the Polish state official historian mission, which worked in your archives then). Dispite this Russian "deeply friendships" archive policy a lot of documents (xeros) were handed over for Poles historians. Of course the documents were before deliberatly selected by Russian "smart" archivist.

The works written by prof. Czesław Grzelak are done according this materials, which despite Russian attitude towards Poles historians are quite substative but of course do not have all data.

Ad rem
The text "Ratas over Poland" has >32.000 signes and is written in Polish, only English captions under the photos.
In my material I have found that Soviets did shot down 5 Polish planes (the well know case of air combat P.11c of ppor. W. Miksa of 114. Esk. Mysliwska is included).

The lasts air clashes over Poland were in October 1939 when Soviet I-16 of most probably 4. IAP twice attacked a Polish PWS-26 (it could be on 1 and 4 X 1939). In one case this Polish PWS-26 was force landed (slightly damged returned to flying very soon, Soviets did made several holes in PWS and later strafed it on the ground).

Regards,
Mirek Wawrzynski

PS
BTW What is your name Mr Deruluft?

Уважаемый Мирек.

Цитата:

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Сообщение от mirekw

According your opinion -"which is wrong and this is flase name. It was a simple very small war, when about 1.500 Russian was killed and next 2.000 injured. Russian had killed/ also mordered many times about 6.500-7.500 Polish soldiers in IX-X 1939" it was "Oswobotitelnyj pochod".

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С Вашей точки зрения это агрессия, с точки зрения советских документов изучаемого периода это Освободительный поход (кстати, очень интересно как называются эти события в литовской историографии).
Мы вроде историки (хотя и не профессиональные), а значит, не должны руководствоваться не личным мнением. Поэтому предлагаю в дальнейшем использовать нейтральное название.

Цитата:

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Сообщение от mirekw

1. Soviet Aviation in War over Poland, September 1939. Lotnictwo sowieckie w wojnie nad Polską wrzesień 1939 roku, cz. 2; p. 6, 7 b&w photos, both parts 65.000 signes, [in:] Militaria i Fakty 5-6/2003.

2. Soviet Aviation in War over Poland, September 1939 vol. I. Lotnictwo sowieckie w wojnie nad Polską wrzesień 1939 r. cz. 1; p. 5, 7 b&w photos, [in:] Militaria i Fakty 4/2003.

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А что за фотографии? Они имеют отношение к конфликту? Я нашел пока только одну фотографию – ангар с заброшенными польскими самолетами.

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Сообщение от mirekw

As you know many Soviet documents (not all becasue Russian archivist deliberatly had hidden some parts of records in about 1992-94 from the Polish state official historian mission, which worked in your archives then). Dispite this Russian "deeply friendships" archive policy a lot of documents (xeros) were handed over for Poles historians. Of course the documents were before deliberatly selected by Russian "smart" archivist.

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Я совершенно этого не знаю. Я знаю, что исследователи, которые хотят получить нужную информацию, ее получают, и Кате из читального зала РГВА в голову не приходит скрывать документы именно от польских исследователей. У Вас-то откуда обида на российских архивистов?

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Сообщение от mirekw

BTW What is your name Mr Deruluft?

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Меня зовут Алексей.

Hi Alex
Accordings your documents made in 30-50 of XX c. and your resarches published 2-3 weeks ago in Moscow there were killed (this is only shot by NKVD's fire squads in prisons and peoples courts orders) 1.000.000 enemy public, spies of Germans, Japan, Polish, GB ect., bad people (kulaks, burzujes, capitalist's friendsect.), trockists, antysoviet peoples.

This is only the amount of executed, not all personal losses in 30-50 years (cholodomor, ect) of XX c in Stalins Russia.

Having exactly of the optic of these documents made/written by NKVDs officials, all these sentences were all and only one and right true and these peoples were all guilty and there was good, that they all were killed by the states officials.

Alex you may as a Russian called this as a right done "job"- "priekrasno i otliczno zdielana rabota, wot kakije zuchy eti czekisty, charaszo zdielali, ubit 1.000.000 - wot kakije charoszuje stanchanowcy - smiert burzujom, imperialistiom smiert", it is up to you, because in all these documents all were so called.

OK, you have right to think this way, for me it was big massacres where many not guilty peoples where simply mordered by the Russian state - for me - it was Great Pruges / big genocidy" but this is my and some otheres pepoles optic, we are not living in Russia.

The same way for you all is a "freedom march", for me it is "Russian Agression/ Knife in the Back" of Poland and let it be.
Better do not talk about this futher, it is pointless.

You have your optic we, I have own.

It was anyway small scale "war". You do not belive that these 1.500 killed Russian (which is understimates datas, not all according us) had died becouse of illness. According our estimations there were 3.000-3.500 killed Russians - also small figures if you comapre with others "wars".

You belive in your documents true, I belive in documents too and their analyse and interpretations and cross-checking with other side.


This info about hiddening some parts of documents from the Polish states official delegations coming directly from Russians, this is not Polish opinion. No matter, there are quite many datas anyway surfaced.


There were made not so many (maybe there are but not yet surfaced) but I know about 10 photos from this period. In my material there are given 3 photos from the Lvov airfiled, where Sovites inspecting captured Polish planes. There are 2 more connecting with this period (in articles in MiF).

Regards,

Mirek W

Мирек, если Вы захотите все-таки занятся исследованием применения авиации в сентябре 1939 года - найти меня не сложно - deruluft(at)yandex.ru.

В остальном я помочь не смогу.

OK

mirwaw_xl@wp.pl

MirekW