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Тема: МиГ-21бис with fowler flaps????

  1. #1
    Старожил Форумчанин Аватар для Jean-Philippe
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    По умолчанию МиГ-21бис with fowler flaps????

    Today I had a nice argue with French modellers. Some of them spoke about MiG-21bis equiped with fowler flaps instead of SPS flaps.
    :shock:
    Do you agree with them? I don't.

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    Hello Jean-Philippe.

    I'm pretty sure at all MiG-21 bis aircrafts had the SPS installed. A more interesting question would be "Did all MiG-21 PFMs have the SPS installed ?". To my knowledge, the first batch (MiG-21 PFM type 77 with a single-piece canopy) didn't, the later batches (MiG-21 PFM type 94 with a fixed windscreen) did. Could someone please confirm this statement or not ? Thanks.

    The "French modellers"

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    Спасибо! :D

    And I agree with you! 8)

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    Jean-Philippe, I am Lolo (from Master194.com's forum) and Laurent (from ARC's forum)... My account isn't activated yet.

    Laurent

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    Администратор Ветеран Аватар для Д.Срибный
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    Цитата Сообщение от Anonymous
    Jean-Philippe, I am Lolo (from Master194.com's forum) and Laurent (from ARC's forum)... My account isn't activated yet.

    Laurent
    It's activated now :-) Welcome!
    С уважением,
    Дмитрий

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    Новичок Форумчанин Аватар для Laurent
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    Цитата Сообщение от Д.Срибный
    It's activated now :-) Welcome!
    Thank you ! :D

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    Here is a scheme of SPS system from the technical manual MiG-21PFS, its showned how its work.

    I know that the SPS system was used starting from MiG-21PFS version and mounted on PFS, PFM, R and S(SM). About 'bis' I can't say now, but tomorrow i'll try to find this information in the technical schemes of Mig-21bis.
    Миниатюры Миниатюры sps_219.jpg  

  8. #8
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    I find this now,

    This is MiG-21bis and its engine R-25-300. You can see in middle of engine body the exhaust of an airway to diverse air from the engine (part of SPS system).

    And in stencil scheme of MiG-21bis you can see texts about SPS system, so this system was used on MiG-21bis too.
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    Thank you for the confirmation, Андрей :)
    Mmh. I'm still wondering if PFMs all had blown-flaps.

    Цитата Сообщение от Котков Андрей
    Here is a scheme of SPS system from the technical manual MiG-21PFS, its showned how its work.
    The manual is in Polish ? Poland had PFSs ?

  10. #10
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    Yes, manual is Polish.

    Not, Poland used PF and after that was delivered PFM late batches, no PFS.
    Котков Андрей,
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    Цитата Сообщение от Котков Андрей
    Yes, manual is Polish.

    Not, Poland used PF and after that was delivered PFM late batches, no PFS.
    So how come there existed a MiG-21 PFS technical manual in Polish when Poland never used the MiG-21 PFS ? Perhaps that USSR had stationned MiG-21PFS in Poland and that the technicians and engineers that took care of them where Polls. I don't know. Thank you for the pictures anyway. :)

  12. #12
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    those guys would never be polish =)

    I guess TM was simply translated for the education purposes.
    Let's drink Guinness!

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    I knew "МиГ-21бис with fowler flaps?" was a stupid question :lol: , and I knew the answer, but now I'd like to ask a new "good" and serious question : did all МиГ-21 ПФМ (with 2 pieces canopy and KM-1 ejection seat) have SPS system?

    Laurent please do not laugh at me! :oops:

  14. #14
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    Цитата Сообщение от Jean-Philippe
    Laurent please do not laugh at me! :oops:
    I'm not laughing at you at all, Jean-Philippe. And I'm pretty sure that the PFMs with a fixed windscreen all had the SPS installed.
    I think you should try to find the drawings made by Владимир Климов. I suppose that these drawings appeared first in the booklet: Ефим Гордон и Владимир Климов, МиГ-21 часть I, Приложение к журналу "Крылья Родины" №1 1994. Now you can find the drawings in the MiG-21 Aerofax book and the Famous Aircraft of the World MiG-21 Burindo book.
    Assuming that these drawings are correct, PFMs with no SPS and a single-part canopy existed.

  15. #15
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    Цитата Сообщение от Laurent
    Цитата Сообщение от Jean-Philippe
    Laurent please do not laugh at me! :oops:
    I'm not laughing at you at all, Jean-Philippe. And I'm pretty sure that the PFMs with a fixed windscreen all had the SPS installed.
    I think you should try to find the drawings made by Владимир Климов. I suppose that these drawings appeared first in the booklet: Ефим Гордон и Владимир Климов, МиГ-21 часть I, Приложение к журналу "Крылья Родины" №1 1994. Now you can find the drawings in the MiG-21 Aerofax book and the Famous Aircraft of the World MiG-21 Burindo book.
    Assuming that these drawings are correct, PFMs with no SPS and a single-part canopy existed.
    Now we just have to wait for Russian members answers...

    You said you are pretty sure but not totally sure, and I'm very suspicious about drawings.
    Remenber how "accurate" were the Russian aircraft drawings 20 years ago, those drawn by western designers.
    I'm sure there are now Russian specialists with new informations and datas.

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    Ok, here it is starboard instrumental panelle on late batches MiG-21PFM, there is two switchers "SPS control", so at my look MiG-21PFM had SPS system.

    Maybe TM MiG-21PFM had same pages about SPS system, like MiG-21PFS TM, probably for that reason part of instruction MiG-21PFS was translate to Polish.
    Миниатюры Миниатюры late_pfm_starboard_cockpit_147.jpg  
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  17. #17
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    Спасибо Андрей!
    Very precious technical datas!

  18. #18
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    Цитата Сообщение от Котков Андрей
    Ok, here it is starboard instrumental panelle on late batches MiG-21PFM, there is two switchers "SPS control", so at my look MiG-21PFM had SPS system.
    Sure but what about early batch MiG-21PFM ?
    According to Yefim Gordon, the canopy with fixed windscreen was introduced in the 15th produced PFM aircraft. In Vladimir Klimov's PFM drawings, the SPS access panel isn't there in the PFMs with a single-piece canopy except in the last profile with no bort number. This leads me to think that the first PFMs did not have SPS flaps. Am I wrong ?

    Цитата Сообщение от Котков Андрей
    Maybe TM MiG-21PFM had same pages about SPS system, like MiG-21PFS TM, probably for that reason part of instruction MiG-21PFS was translate to Polish.
    You're probably right.

  19. #19
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    Late Mig-21PFM - aicrafts staring 1-st aircraft of 15-th serial batch, not 15-th PFM aircraft. There was at least 10 aircraft in one serial batch, so it was produced at least 150 early MiG-21PFM.

    MiG-21PFM early batches (isdelie 94) was a liitle upgraded version of MiG-21PFS (isdelie 77), main changing - large fin, engine was the same on MiG-21PFS and MiG-21PFM - R-11F2S-300.

    Early and late Mig-21PFM had same production code - isdelie 94, so IMHO it is can't be big differences (variouse engines, different control functions, difference flight parameter), main change into one type - new seat and new canopy.
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  20. #20
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    Thank you Андрей !

    To summerize what you've said:
    - PFMs where all izdelye 94 (that's contradicting the Aerofax p44: "Thus, about a month later in 1964 Gorkii switched to making the MiG-21PFM, which initially received Izdelye number Type 77.")
    - all PFMs had SPS (that's contradicting Klimov's drawings)
    - early PFMs has a single piece canopy, late PFMs has a two pieces canopy
    I hope I didn't write anything wrong. Did you get all these infos from a particular place ? If so, could you please tell us where ? Thanks again ! :D

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