Today I had a nice argue with French modellers. Some of them spoke about MiG-21bis equiped with fowler flaps instead of SPS flaps.
:shock:
Do you agree with them? I don't.
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Today I had a nice argue with French modellers. Some of them spoke about MiG-21bis equiped with fowler flaps instead of SPS flaps.
:shock:
Do you agree with them? I don't.
Hello Jean-Philippe.
I'm pretty sure at all MiG-21 bis aircrafts had the SPS installed. A more interesting question would be "Did all MiG-21 PFMs have the SPS installed ?". To my knowledge, the first batch (MiG-21 PFM type 77 with a single-piece canopy) didn't, the later batches (MiG-21 PFM type 94 with a fixed windscreen) did. Could someone please confirm this statement or not ? Thanks.
The "French modellers"
Спасибо! :D
And I agree with you! 8)
Jean-Philippe, I am Lolo (from Master194.com's forum) and Laurent (from ARC's forum)... My account isn't activated yet.
Laurent
It's activated now :-) Welcome!Цитата:
Сообщение от Anonymous
Thank you ! :DЦитата:
Сообщение от Д.Срибный
Here is a scheme of SPS system from the technical manual MiG-21PFS, its showned how its work.
I know that the SPS system was used starting from MiG-21PFS version and mounted on PFS, PFM, R and S(SM). About 'bis' I can't say now, but tomorrow i'll try to find this information in the technical schemes of Mig-21bis.
I find this now, http://walkarounds.airforce.ru/avia/...-21bis_110.jpg
This is MiG-21bis and its engine R-25-300. You can see in middle of engine body the exhaust of an airway to diverse air from the engine (part of SPS system).
And in stencil scheme of MiG-21bis you can see texts about SPS system, so this system was used on MiG-21bis too.
Thank you for the confirmation, Андрей :)
Mmh. I'm still wondering if PFMs all had blown-flaps.
The manual is in Polish ? Poland had PFSs ?Цитата:
Сообщение от Котков Андрей
Yes, manual is Polish.
Not, Poland used PF and after that was delivered PFM late batches, no PFS.
So how come there existed a MiG-21 PFS technical manual in Polish when Poland never used the MiG-21 PFS ? Perhaps that USSR had stationned MiG-21PFS in Poland and that the technicians and engineers that took care of them where Polls. I don't know. Thank you for the pictures anyway. :)Цитата:
Сообщение от Котков Андрей
those guys would never be polish =)
I guess TM was simply translated for the education purposes.
I knew "МиГ-21бис with fowler flaps?" was a stupid question :lol: , and I knew the answer, but now I'd like to ask a new "good" and serious question : did all МиГ-21 ПФМ (with 2 pieces canopy and KM-1 ejection seat) have SPS system?
Laurent please do not laugh at me! :oops:
I'm not laughing at you at all, Jean-Philippe. And I'm pretty sure that the PFMs with a fixed windscreen all had the SPS installed.Цитата:
Сообщение от Jean-Philippe
I think you should try to find the drawings made by Владимир Климов. I suppose that these drawings appeared first in the booklet: Ефим Гордон и Владимир Климов, МиГ-21 часть I, Приложение к журналу "Крылья Родины" №1 1994. Now you can find the drawings in the MiG-21 Aerofax book and the Famous Aircraft of the World MiG-21 Burindo book.
Assuming that these drawings are correct, PFMs with no SPS and a single-part canopy existed.
Now we just have to wait for Russian members answers...Цитата:
Сообщение от Laurent
You said you are pretty sure but not totally sure, and I'm very suspicious about drawings.
Remenber how "accurate" were the Russian aircraft drawings 20 years ago, those drawn by western designers.
I'm sure there are now Russian specialists with new informations and datas.
Ok, here it is starboard instrumental panelle on late batches MiG-21PFM, there is two switchers "SPS control", so at my look MiG-21PFM had SPS system.
Maybe TM MiG-21PFM had same pages about SPS system, like MiG-21PFS TM, probably for that reason part of instruction MiG-21PFS was translate to Polish.
Спасибо Андрей!
Very precious technical datas!
Sure but what about early batch MiG-21PFM ?Цитата:
Сообщение от Котков Андрей
According to Yefim Gordon, the canopy with fixed windscreen was introduced in the 15th produced PFM aircraft. In Vladimir Klimov's PFM drawings, the SPS access panel isn't there in the PFMs with a single-piece canopy except in the last profile with no bort number. This leads me to think that the first PFMs did not have SPS flaps. Am I wrong ?
You're probably right.Цитата:
Сообщение от Котков Андрей
Late Mig-21PFM - aicrafts staring 1-st aircraft of 15-th serial batch, not 15-th PFM aircraft. There was at least 10 aircraft in one serial batch, so it was produced at least 150 early MiG-21PFM.
MiG-21PFM early batches (isdelie 94) was a liitle upgraded version of MiG-21PFS (isdelie 77), main changing - large fin, engine was the same on MiG-21PFS and MiG-21PFM - R-11F2S-300.
Early and late Mig-21PFM had same production code - isdelie 94, so IMHO it is can't be big differences (variouse engines, different control functions, difference flight parameter), main change into one type - new seat and new canopy.
Thank you Андрей !
To summerize what you've said:
- PFMs where all izdelye 94 (that's contradicting the Aerofax p44: "Thus, about a month later in 1964 Gorkii switched to making the MiG-21PFM, which initially received Izdelye number Type 77.")
- all PFMs had SPS (that's contradicting Klimov's drawings)
- early PFMs has a single piece canopy, late PFMs has a two pieces canopy
I hope I didn't write anything wrong. Did you get all these infos from a particular place ? If so, could you please tell us where ? Thanks again ! :D
Привет Лоран,
As you can see, sometimes there are contradictions between books written by famous specialists and... facts. 8)
(see your PM)
Спасибо Андрей for these facts about МиГ-21ПФМ. :D
Not facts. Information.Цитата:
Сообщение от Jean-Philippe
In the article "The first all-weather generation: MiG-21PF fighter and its derivatives" from Airfleet 3.2003, Type 94 designation was used both for the PFS and the PFM. Type 77B was for the MiG-21FL.
Good, you had the right behaviour. It is information of course, not yet facts.
:wink:
No, about eqail early and late MiG-21PFM in using SPS system - it is my guess, at my look two so difficult fighters can't have one modification code PFM, as i suppose main differences between its - new canopy and seat.
By the way i dont know why, but in ex-GDR Air Force (NVA/LSK) MiG-21PFM (operate only late type MiG-21PFM) officially called MiG-21SPS (SPS-K if was mounted GP-9 underfuselage gun pod), so it is another one fact - late MiG-21PFM had SPS system.
About early type - i don't have full information, but IMHO early MiG-21PFM had this system too:
1. MiG-21PFS had this system.
2. MiG-21PFM was upgraded version MiG-21PFS with same engine.
3. Late MiG-21PFM had SPS flaps, so why early MiG-21PFM hadn't its?
Спасибо Андрей,Цитата:
Сообщение от Котков Андрей
I was only wondering about SPS flaps on late МиГ-21ПФМ, and you answerd my question! :D
So if I want to build a Russian МиГ-21ПФМ from the Zvezda model, I have to modify the flaps because Zvezda had moulded the wings with fowler flaps.
Am I right?
Returning to old discussions.
Today i see technical manual to MiG-21PFM (1969 year issue) - it is not different between this submoficaton (as say in this book from Gorkiy aviation plant), this one boook for both submodification, it is only one differences - two subchapters in chapters about canopy (one piece canopy for early PFM, two piece canopy for late PFM) and seats (SK - early PFM and KM-1(1M) for late PFM).
As write in this manual both PFM version had SPS system with absolutly eqail control panele this sysytem.
So SPS system vas mounted on both submodifacations MiG-21PFM.
Спасибо Андрей! :D
Thank you very much for the informations but I do not draw the same conclusions than you. Here are mine:Цитата:
Сообщение от Котков Андрей
1) MiG-21 PFMs either had single or two pieces canopies (a lot of people would disagree to that)
2) MiG-21 PFMs in 1969 all had the SPS
What about first production MiG-21PFMs built in 1964 ? If all PFMs had SPS flaps, what's the version of Kiev's MiG-21 which appears to have Fowler flaps ?
Thanks again for prooving that PFMs could have PF type canopy and seat !
Laurent